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Farming and the State
Farming and the State
Two leading world historians discuss the connections between the shift to agriculture and the rise of states.
As this video progresses, key ideas will be introduced to invoke discussion.
Think about the following questions as you watch the video
What do Candice Goucher and Laura Mitchell think about the argument that farming was a pre-condition for the state?
What evidence do Goucher and Trevor Getz provide as a counterargument to the claim that grain farming, in particular, leads to states?
What does Mitchell say about the connection between labor and the state?
Given the added labor and tax burden, do Goucher and Mitchell think the state was a good idea?
According to Goucher, is there still a connection between farming and the state today?
: (music playing)
: Hello, my name is Trevor Getz.
: I'm a professor of history
: at San Francisco State University,
: and I'm here with two leading world historians,
: Candace Goucher and Laura Mitchell,
: to talk about the connection between farming
: and the emergence of the state in human history.
: We often hear that farming was a precondition for the state.
: In fact, James Scott argues that
: there was no such thing as a state
: that didn't rest on an alluvial grain farming population.
: In your experience, do you think this is correct?
: (music playing)
: (music playing)
: James Scott argues that there was no such thing as a state
: that didn't rest on an alluvial grain farming population.
: In your experience, do you think this is correct?
: GOUCHER: I think there are some other examples
: that don't require farming
: for large populations to settle in one place--
: fishing populations;
: there are the herders, the nomads;
: states on the move.
: You do need stable resources,
: and farming is one way to reach that scenario.
: I would encourage students to think about farming
: in the state in multiple ways.
: In world history we tend to look for generalizations
: and for broad patterns.
: And, in general,
: farming is an important precondition for the state.
: But what that farming looks like and what the relationship
: between a particular kind of farming
: and the form of the state are
: is always contingent-- it depends on local factors.
: So you want to be able to push and think that even if farming
: is generally related to the state,
: the fact that there is farming
: does not inevitably mean that there will be a state.
: The fact that there is an accumulation
: of agricultural surplus
: doesn't mean that we're going to lead to a state,
: and even if it does lead to the state,
: it doesn't tell us what form that state's going to take.
: So thinking with this generalization
: is a great place to start,
: but you always want to dive in and look at specific examples
: and not be content with just a generalization
: that farmers live in states.
: Because mostly they do, but not always,
: and they don't live in the same kind of state
: in every place, in every time.
: Scott also argues that grains in particular,
: rather than other foods, make states possible.
: But I know of at least a few states in East Africa,
: like the kingdom of Buganda,
: that actually developed around a diet of plantains and bananas,
: rather than grains.
: What do you think?
: GOUCHER: Grains work as an argument
: in some parts of the world.
: Grasses were indeed very important
: in the early farming societies of parts of Eurasia.
: But if you look at parts
: of West Africa, South America,
: then you have a totally different scenario.
: You have yams that are important.
: And, indeed, in some places you don't even need agriculture
: because the resources are so abundant.
: Scott also argues that the labor requirements of farming,
: like doing irrigation work, help lead to the state.
: What's the connection there?
: MITCHELL: There is a connection about labor.
: And it, it doesn't only have to be farming labor.
: And I don't think that Scott's off-base
: in his focus on farming,
: because farming is the basis of most people's livelihood, right?
: If you're, if you're not farming you're not eating,
: if you're living in a large community.
: But there are other kinds of communal labor that also matter
: for state formation, and for state maintenance,
: particularly the construction of state buildings
: and communal religious sites.
: All right, all of this leads me to ask:
: Was the state actually a good idea?
: I mean, Scott seems to suggest
: that the state just added a burden.
: It created taxes, it created warfare,
: and that it wasn't actually a very good deal for the farmer.
: What do you think?
: GOUCHER: The state could be a good idea
: if there were moments of crisis.
: But the model for the state
: as a coercive entity is not the only model.
: So, states could alter
: people's experience in times of crisis
: by storing food and providing
: excess food to those without food
: in, in environmental crises, or in times of famine.
: I want to push back on that question a little bit and say,
: a good idea for whom?
: Scott gets at that question
: when he's saying it wasn't a good idea for farmers,
: that farmers were more oppressed
: and had fewer advantages.
: But for elites?
: For people who could control the labor of farmers,
: states were, were clearly a good idea.
: Without the coercion and hierarchy
: that we see from most states,
: we wouldn't have the kind of artisanal and artist class.
: There's a richness of development
: and the continuation or circulation of knowledge.
: There are complex religious practices
: that I think wouldn't happen
: without the exploitation of farming labor.
: That's not to justify exploitation, but to say that
: it's hard to say that a state,
: either a state as a concept or a specific state,
: is a good idea or a bad idea
: because, as in most historical circumstances,
: you have winners and losers.
: How does the connection
: between farming and the state work today?
: What has changed over the past thousands of years?
: For example, most of us today aren't farmers today
: but there are still states.
: GOUCHER: I think one of the important measures
: of the success of a state
: is whether it can deal with
: the distribution of food.
: And if we look around
: and see people who are without houses,
: people who are hungry,
: then we have, I think, evidence of failed states.
: So we can measure states in ancient times
: in much the same way that we can measure states today.
: I want to thank both of you for joining me here today.
: This is a really important topic,
: the connection between farming and the state,
: and I think we've all learned a lot.